------- start of digest (RFC 934 encapsulation) -------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:05:53 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Hi all, Just a thought I had under the shower (why would I take showers if I hadn't crazy thoughts there?). NPDS 3 will not simply be a new kernel. It should be a real improvement of NPDS, more personal and easier to use. It could come with a set of themes (css, templates) of personal data server i.e. new user would just have to install the various packages, do a quick setup of the server (port, admin password, name & other tracker client information), choose a theme and the Newton will automatically serve pages according to this theme. Of course, it has to be gorgious, follow W3C standards and readable with Newtscape/NetHopper. A theme would be a set of css, template files & pictures giving a style to the server. For example I thought there could be one making the server look like a Newton (with the NotePad decoration and so on). In fact, there would be integrated a theme prefs where you would choose between package-themes coming with NPDS (or from third parties), and personal theme, directly from NotePad/binary servers, thus allowing full customization of all that. What do you think? and If you think it's a good idea, are there any volunteering & talented webdesigners wishing to make some static pseudo-NPDS server following a given theme? Also, I think we should discuss about the structure of NPDS-3 servers. There are things we should keep as is, I think, and things that should change or be replaced. I guess that we need: * some functionality like the pager (the pager has to be entirely redesigned, for example it should store pages in a soup and open itself automatically after a restart if it wasn't closed) Maybe the pager soup could simply be In/OutBox? * some functionality to simply serve pages (from the NotePad/NewtWorks), with inline graphics (so you can serve very simply a note) * the dates and cardfile servers (probably need some little changes and they should benefit from new techs such as HTTP authentication) * some way to serve screen shots * the tracker client of course The big thing I would like to discuss with you is the Note-posting capability and forum-like (or guest-book like) feature. I have several ideas, but maybe I should listen from your suggestions first. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:10:03 +0100 Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure From: Cheezy GO! GO! GO! ;o) Cheezy Le mardi 12 fŽvrier 2002, ˆ 11:05 , Paul Guyot a Žcrit : > Hi all, > > Just a thought I had under the shower (why would I take showers if I > hadn't crazy thoughts there?). > [...] What do you think? [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:12:27 -0500 Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure From: David Abramowitz Sounds great, Paul. I'd be happy to help out in any way possible. - Dave On 2/12/02 5:05 AM, "Paul Guyot" wrote: > Hi all, > > Just a thought I had under the shower (why would I take showers if I > hadn't crazy thoughts there?). > > NPDS 3 will not simply be a new kernel. It should be a real > improvement of NPDS, more personal and easier to use. > > It could come with a set of themes (css, templates) of personal data server > i.e. new user would just have to install the various packages, do a > quick setup of the server (port, admin password, name & other tracker > client information), choose a theme and the Newton will automatically > serve pages according to this theme. Of course, it has to be > gorgious, follow W3C standards and readable with Newtscape/NetHopper. > > A theme would be a set of css, template files & pictures giving a > style to the server. For example I thought there could be one making > the server look like a Newton (with the NotePad decoration and so on). > > In fact, there would be integrated a theme prefs where you would > choose between package-themes coming with NPDS (or from third > parties), and personal theme, directly from NotePad/binary servers, > thus allowing full customization of all that. > > What do you think? > > and > > If you think it's a good idea, are there any volunteering & talented > webdesigners wishing to make some static pseudo-NPDS server following > a given theme? > > Also, I think we should discuss about the structure of NPDS-3 > servers. There are things we should keep as is, I think, and things > that should change or be replaced. > > I guess that we need: > * some functionality like the pager (the pager has to be entirely > redesigned, for example it should store pages in a soup and open > itself automatically after a restart if it wasn't closed) > Maybe the pager soup could simply be In/OutBox? > * some functionality to simply serve pages (from the > NotePad/NewtWorks), with inline graphics (so you can serve very > simply a note) > * the dates and cardfile servers (probably need some little changes > and they should benefit from new techs such as HTTP authentication) > * some way to serve screen shots > * the tracker client of course > > The big thing I would like to discuss with you is the Note-posting > capability and forum-like (or guest-book like) feature. I have > several ideas, but maybe I should listen from your suggestions first. > > Paul [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:42:32 -0700 From: Grant Hutchinson >Just a thought I had under the shower (why would I take showers if I >hadn't crazy thoughts there?). Crazy thoughts? Not likely. You must have some spare time coming up, Paul. Your Newton-based activity level has popped up again. >NPDS 3 will not simply be a new kernel. It should be a real >improvement of NPDS, more personal and easier to use. Yes. Oh, yes. >It could come with a set of themes (css, templates) of personal data server >i.e. new user would just have to install the various packages, do a >quick setup of the server (port, admin password, name & other tracker >client information), choose a theme and the Newton will automatically >serve pages according to this theme. Of course, it has to be >gorgious, follow W3C standards and readable with Newtscape/NetHopper. I am liking where this is heading. Online weblogging and self-publishing products like Blogger, Movable Type, and Radio Userland work this way. All of them have the capability of using predesigned themes or custom user-defined ones, which can be selected on the fly. Radio Userland, in fact, also operates as a local HTTP server as well, so you can see exactly what you're going to get once the site is published. Creating a set of page templates (perhaps identifying and separating out common page elements such as headers, footers, navigation bars, copyright notices, etc. into individual include files), style sheets, and associated graphic files would be a fairly easy task. Making sure that they validate in terms of W3C HTML (or XHTML) and CSS, would be a given. I would be willing to create several base templates and themes for the project. First of all, I would need to document all of the various types of templates required (error pages vs. content display pages; CardServ vs. NoteServ pages; posting forms, confirmation notices, etc.) I don't suppose that there is any documentation of what pages currently get generated by NPDS is there? Of course, if we're redeveloping the entire base of NPDS services and functions, then the page and template list will be different. >A theme would be a set of css, template files & pictures giving a >style to the server. For example I thought there could be one making >the server look like a Newton (with the NotePad decoration and so on). Paul, is there going to be any issue with NPDS 3.0 serving up multiple files from the soup for a given page? Potentially, there could be a dozen or two file associated with any given theme-based page served up. Just wondering. >If you think it's a good idea, are there any volunteering & talented >webdesigners wishing to make some static pseudo-NPDS server following >a given theme? Hello. Let me introduce myself... :) >I guess that we need: >* some functionality like the pager (the pager has to be entirely >redesigned, for example it should store pages in a soup and open >itself automatically after a restart if it wasn't closed) >Maybe the pager soup could simply be In/OutBox? I don't use the pager very much, but I suppose I would if some changes were made. That being said, I'd like to see a larger Newton-side interface for one. Again, I like the idea of using the In/Out box as the interface to the pager soup. It just seems that many of the NPDS components maintain their own way of handling files and content. The more of these that can be combined into the common system wide interfaces such as Notes or In/Out, the better. >* some functionality to simply serve pages (from the >NotePad/NewtWorks), with inline graphics (so you can serve very >simply a note) Is there any way we can improve the way NPDS distinguishes between a plain text (or lightly styled, like bolded or sized text...) note from one that contains pure HTML content? Specifically, I guess I'm interested to see how intelligent NPDS can be in terms of parsing the content of a note and how it wraps that content in a template. Does this make sense? >* the dates and cardfile servers (probably need some little changes >and they should benefit from new techs such as HTTP authentication) Authentication would be useful for allowing the admin to control server functions or plug-in prefs. I like the idea of a web-based remote admin system for all components of the server. >* some way to serve screen shots No argument here. How about live-streaming animated gifs? :) >The big thing I would like to discuss with you is the Note-posting >capability and forum-like (or guest-book like) feature. I have >several ideas, but maybe I should listen from your suggestions first. I would be interested specifically in different ways of displaying the posted notes. Sort order, with time stamping, number of posts listed using the SSI tag, etc. Being able to thread a series of posts, or at having a reply to a post directly linked to the original somehow would be useful. Here's a couple other things to consider: * server logging and reporting * integration of NPDS Watcher * web-based binary file uploading * Notes folder browser Whew. g. ...................................................................... Grant Hutchinson Interface Considerations & Toys Live video served fresh since 1996. http://www.splorp.com/cam/ Now fortified with daily ramblings. http://www.splorp.com/blog/ Newton. It's the Palm with a brain. http://www.splorp.com/newton/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:00:39 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure >Creating a set of page templates (perhaps identifying and separating out >common page elements such as headers, footers, navigation bars, copyright >notices, etc. into individual include files), style sheets, and >associated graphic files would be a fairly easy task. Making sure that >they validate in terms of W3C HTML (or XHTML) and CSS, would be a given. Once again, Grant, I have to take the dictionary to learn a new expression you're using. Except that this time, I did not find anything into any of my dicts. What do you mean "[It] would be a given."? Maybe something is missing there? (BTW, I quite enjoy having to learn new expressions). >I would be willing to create several base templates and themes for the >project. First of all, I would need to document all of the various types >of templates required (error pages vs. content display pages; CardServ >vs. NoteServ pages; posting forms, confirmation notices, etc.) I don't >suppose that there is any documentation of what pages currently get >generated by NPDS is there? Of course, if we're redeveloping the entire >base of NPDS services and functions, then the page and template list will >be different. I thought that we could work together on this. I mean, we could all say what kind of interface we want from the features (hence my list that you completed & commented). >Paul, is there going to be any issue with NPDS 3.0 serving up multiple >files from the soup for a given page? Potentially, there could be a dozen >or two file associated with any given theme-based page served up. Just >wondering. Why are you talking about files? And what kind of problems could there be? I guess you mean something like: "is it possible to make several soup requests to send a single resource over HTTP?" the answer is it is technically what NPDS already does in some cases (for example when it displays the list of notes, it makes a query on the Note soup and then iterates on the results to display the list). >Hello. Let me introduce myself... :) Do you have some kind of reference? ;) I think that there are other web designer professional with a NPDS server and talented amateurs. I am probably the worst HTML coder on this list, that's why I'm looking for talents ;) >I don't use the pager very much, but I suppose I would if some changes >were made. That being said, I'd like to see a larger Newton-side >interface for one. Again, I like the idea of using the In/Out box as the >interface to the pager soup. It just seems that many of the NPDS >components maintain their own way of handling files and content. The more >of these that can be combined into the common system wide interfaces such >as Notes or In/Out, the better. The In/Out idea was actually Nicolas Zinovieff's. >Is there any way we can improve the way NPDS distinguishes between a >plain text (or lightly styled, like bolded or sized text...) note from >one that contains pure HTML content? Of course. This should be linked with a clear Notes-serving/HTML-serving/Templates/Admin-notes-editing/Bulletin-board policy. It is currently quite a mess, so ideas are welcome. Especially something allowing us to distinguish between a post and a note from the NotePad interface (maybe using the routing button or something, ideas are welcome and encouraged). >Specifically, I guess I'm interested >to see how intelligent NPDS can be in terms of parsing the content of a >note and how it wraps that content in a template. Does this make sense? It fits what I've been thinking about. I don't have any clear solution yet, but there is work to be done for sure. >Authentication would be useful for allowing the admin to control server >functions or plug-in prefs. I like the idea of a web-based remote admin >system for all components of the server. Sounds great, doesn't it? BTW, I can see two not-too-boring ways to communicate dreams of a software. Designing mockups (such as pseudo-static NPDS websites I was talking about) and drafting documentation. Both are easy to use for the coding process. Of course, we can also draft specifications if you prefer it the more-official way. > >* some way to serve screen shots > >No argument here. How about live-streaming animated gifs? :) Let's put it at the bottom of the list after Victor's idea of a RGB & HSV sliders ;) >I would be interested specifically in different ways of displaying the >posted notes. Sort order, with time stamping, number of posts listed >using the SSI tag, etc. BTW, about SSIs (and it's linked to your request). One of the great weaknesses of SSIs I guess is the fact that they can't take arguments. No-one uses the "unused" argument in their scripts, don't you? (I also thought of inline NewtonScript directly in page for server-side code). >Being able to thread a series of posts, or at >having a reply to a post directly linked to the original somehow would be >useful. It's what I call Bulletin Board-feature. I think that we all see the Notes-posting capability this way, don't we? >* server logging and reporting Oh yeah, I forgot this part. One of the thing that isn't reliable on the current hacked version, and that will be very easy to add with the new kernel. >* integration of NPDS Watcher What do you mean? >* web-based binary file uploading FTP server? >* Notes folder browser Just like showing index? Nice idea. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:02:31 -0700 From: "Grant [Lint Trap] Hutchinson" >>Creating a set of page templates (perhaps identifying and separating out >>common page elements such as headers, footers, navigation bars, copyright >>notices, etc. into individual include files), style sheets, and >>associated graphic files would be a fairly easy task. Making sure that >>they validate in terms of W3C HTML (or XHTML) and CSS, would be a given. > >Once again, Grant, I have to take the dictionary to learn a new >expression you're using. Except that this time, I did not find >anything into any of my dicts. What do you mean "[It] would be a >given."? Maybe something is missing there? Sorry about that. I keep forgetting that I need to try to write without using as many English mannerisms as I usually do. "[It] would be a given." basically means that it "would be assumed" that this is the way we would do it. In other words, I would assume that we would make all of the HTML and CSS valid according to the W3C standards. >>I would be willing to create several base templates and themes for the >>project. First of all, I would need to document all of the various types >>of templates required (error pages vs. content display pages; CardServ >>vs. NoteServ pages; posting forms, confirmation notices, etc.) I don't >>suppose that there is any documentation of what pages currently get >>generated by NPDS is there? Of course, if we're redeveloping the entire >>base of NPDS services and functions, then the page and template list will >>be different. > >I thought that we could work together on this. I mean, we could all >say what kind of interface we want from the features (hence my list >that you completed & commented). Agreed. >>Paul, is there going to be any issue with NPDS 3.0 serving up multiple >>files from the soup for a given page? Potentially, there could be a dozen >>or two file associated with any given theme-based page served up. Just >>wondering. > >Why are you talking about files? >And what kind of problems could there be? > >I guess you mean something like: "is it possible to make several soup >requests to send a single resource over HTTP?" the answer is it is >technically what NPDS already does in some cases (for example when it >displays the list of notes, it makes a query on the Note soup and >then iterates on the results to display the list). Yes, this is what I meant. I guess I shouldn't have used the term "files", but instead the term "requests". I was concerned whether or not NPDS could actually serve a single web page that consisted of several (and possibly dozens) or separate images and other bits from the soup. >>Hello. Let me introduce myself... :) > >Do you have some kind of reference? ;) Sorry, no reference. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I was interested in this part of the development. >I think that there are other web designer professional with a NPDS >server and talented amateurs. I am probably the worst HTML coder on >this list, that's why I'm looking for talents ;) Oh, I'm sure a few people would pop out of the woodwork. Perhaps Andreas Linkvist could help out in this manner. >>Is there any way we can improve the way NPDS distinguishes between a >>plain text (or lightly styled, like bolded or sized text...) note from >>one that contains pure HTML content? > >Of course. This should be linked with a clear >Notes-serving/HTML-serving/Templates/Admin-notes-editing/Bulletin-board >policy. >It is currently quite a mess, so ideas are welcome. Especially >something allowing us to distinguish between a post and a note from >the NotePad interface (maybe using the routing button or something, >ideas are welcome and encouraged). I think about this further. >>Specifically, I guess I'm interested to see how intelligent NPDS can be >>in terms of parsing the content of a note and how it wraps that content >>in a template. Does this make sense? > >It fits what I've been thinking about. I don't have any clear >solution yet, but there is work to be done for sure. Good. We're thinking about the same thing. >BTW, I can see two not-too-boring ways to communicate dreams of a >software. Designing mockups (such as pseudo-static NPDS websites I >was talking about) and drafting documentation. Both are easy to use >for the coding process. Of course, we can also draft specifications >if you prefer it the more-official way. In regards to "pseudo-static NPDS websites", do you mean building mockup pages and serving them on an NPDS server? Or just on any server so they approximately what we would like the future of NPDS to be? >>>* some way to serve screen shots >> >>No argument here. How about live-streaming animated gifs? :) > >Let's put it at the bottom of the list after Victor's idea of a RGB & >HSV sliders ;) Ha! >>I would be interested specifically in different ways of displaying the >>posted notes. Sort order, with time stamping, number of posts listed >>using the SSI tag, etc. > >BTW, about SSIs (and it's linked to your request). One of the great >weaknesses of SSIs I guess is the fact that they can't take >arguments. No-one uses the "unused" argument in their scripts, don't >you? (I also thought of inline NewtonScript directly in page for >server-side code). Ooh, I feel like there's going to be a lot of documentation to describe how to do this... >>Being able to thread a series of posts, or at >>having a reply to a post directly linked to the original somehow would be >>useful. > >It's what I call Bulletin Board-feature. I think that we all see the >Notes-posting capability this way, don't we? Yes. >>* server logging and reporting > >Oh yeah, I forgot this part. One of the thing that isn't reliable on >the current hacked version, and that will be very easy to add with >the new kernel. Lovely. >>* integration of NPDS Watcher > >What do you mean? Well, I am going to assume that the new NPDS will be more stable and robust than the current version. This would make it less necessary to have something like NPDS Watcher monitoring the process and restarting the Newton when thing go wrong. However, if such a monitor is deemed to be a requirement, why can't we build some sort of auto-restart mechanism into the NPDS package itself? I'm just asking a question. There may be several reason why this is a dumb idea. >>* web-based binary file uploading > >FTP server? I suppose that would be the most logical way of looking at it. Being able to upload a binary file (sound, package, image, whatever...) using an authenticated web interface would be useful. >>* Notes folder browser > >Just like showing index? Nice idea. That's what I was thinking. g. ...................................................................... Grant Hutchinson Interface Considerations & Toys Live video served fresh since 1996. http://www.splorp.com/cam/ Now fortified with daily ramblings. http://www.splorp.com/blog/ Newton. It's the Palm with a brain. http://www.splorp.com/newton/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:17:02 -0800 Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure From: Josh Burker On Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 02:05 AM, Paul Guyot wrote: > > What do you think? > All the ideas about the next incarnation of NPDS have sounded great to me. I will be happy to help with the documentation. Josh Burker [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:14:24 -0600 Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure From: John Skinner I like the all comments so far and would like to add a few to the discussion. (sorry if it's long, I got carried away) Yes I agree on: File uploading/downloading, Bulletin Board style threaded note posting/reading. And these... -- (1.) LAYOUT: I really like the idea of having some sort of Page templates or themes. We could have reference to the different "Themes" in the documentation (pdf?) with little pictures so one could see/predict the layout (without; having to change it, browse to it from an external browser and look, and back and forth). It seems it would make more sense to have them be CSS so they would be incorporated into every page that is viewed from the NPDS server. Like on Grant's page with his navigation bar at the top, or Paul's NPDS server now, he has the Newton logo .gif file as a background on (I think) every page. It doesn't have to be CSS, but some similar principle. This would help to give continuity to the site if it were on every page. It would be nice to have it done in frames, but then we would be excluding browsing to it from Newton browsers like NetHopper/Newt's Cape wouldn't we? If we used frames, we could have it load like a navigation bar into one frame on first load, then only load following pages in the main window. Maybe this could be done somehow with CSS though, I don't know. Thoughts? NOTE: I'm a novice web designer, but I would be willing to make a couple of simple "Themes"! -- (2.) WEBPAGER: I also agree on storing the received pages into somewhere like the In/Out store. I also agree with Grant that the interface should be bigger. Maybe full screen even. I know that in a older version number of the WebPager, you could reply directly to a page (from someone that sent it from a Newton running NPDS) by tapping on the little button that looks like a Newton. The only awkward part of this was that it had to open NetHopper and download the senders "WebPager" page from their NPDS server. I know it seems like a lot, but it would be nice if it could operate similar to AOL's Instant Messenger or other chat program. Instead of loading the web page of the sender's "WebPager" in a browser, maybe the reply could be composed in a new, different frame of the WebPager window. Then it could be sent directly to the sender's WebPager program. Thoughts? -- (3.) REMOTE ADMIN: (To re-enable) The ability to post to any directory, not just the default "Whiteboard" area. Right now you can remotely shutdown the NPDS server. It would be nice if you could also reboot your Newton remotely. Maybe by somehow triggering some NewtScript to have NPDS Watcher to do it. (4.) REBOOTING: I think all of us would like to have the option to have all of NPDS start minimized in the "Star" menu upon reboot. (Speaking of this; Hey Grant, let me know if you ever get that "CardCloser" to work on Newton OS 2.x) Reading what Grant said about having a web-based remote admin system: THIS IS A LONG SHOT, but it might be possible with a modified Steve Weyer's NewtVNC! Right now, the two things stopping us are: In the current version there is no JAVA web-based connection to the server like in the real VNC, and the server mode only listens for a connection for a handful of seconds. We could ask Steve if it would be possible to put the JAVA web interface in a version or as an add-on to WABA. Then (getting longer and longer...) we could have a link on the current Admin page that would trigger a NewtScript to tell NewtVNC to listen for a connection. I realize after writing this that this will be on the bottom of the list, ha ha. P.S. I got my best geek friend Newtonized and the two of us are learning NewtonScript to help the Newton Community! [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:06:20 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure À (At) 16:02 -0700 12/02/02, Grant [Lint Trap] Hutchinson écrivait (wrote) : >Sorry about that. I keep forgetting that I need to try to write without >using as many English mannerisms as I usually do. Actually, if you're writing to me, it's just fine (and this list is officially English-speaking). >Yes, this is what I meant. I guess I shouldn't have used the term >"files", but instead the term "requests". I was concerned whether or not >NPDS could actually serve a single web page that consisted of several >(and possibly dozens) or separate images and other bits from the soup. This is not at all a problem, you can trust me. >Sorry, no reference. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I >was interested in this part of the development. I thought you were a professional web designer. >In regards to "pseudo-static NPDS websites", do you mean building mockup >pages and serving them on an NPDS server? Or just on any server so they >approximately what we would like the future of NPDS to be? On any server. In a nutshell, let's dream folks ;) >Ooh, I feel like there's going to be a lot of documentation to describe >how to do this... Probably. But a new interface would definitely make easy to implement the domain SSI for Paul Filmer. >Well, I am going to assume that the new NPDS will be more stable and >robust than the current version. This would make it less necessary to >have something like NPDS Watcher monitoring the process and restarting >the Newton when thing go wrong. However, if such a monitor is deemed to >be a requirement, why can't we build some sort of auto-restart mechanism >into the NPDS package itself? I'm just asking a question. There may be >several reason why this is a dumb idea. Indeed, we need a watcher, especially considering that other things could bring the server down. I am not sure it has to be specifically included into the server, although it's not really a module but rather a function. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:28:40 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure À (At) 3:14 -0600 13/02/02, John Skinner écrivait (wrote) : >We could have reference to the different "Themes" in the documentation >(pdf?) with little pictures so one could see/predict the layout (without; >having to change it, browse to it from an external browser and look, and >back and forth). Of course ;) >It would be nice to have it done in frames, but then we would be excluding >browsing to it from Newton browsers like NetHopper/Newt's Cape wouldn't we? Actually, I'm not very fond of frames as they're (a) not supported by many browsers including NetHopper/Newt's Cape and (b) apparently dropped with HTML 4.0. >Maybe this could be done somehow with CSS though, I don't know. This and many other things can be done with CSS. I'm just an amateur HTML coder and more interested in the languages than the visual aspects of things, but as I see it, CSS is a way to have the thing look nice under modern browsers (supporting CSS, basically) and keep the thing readable in Lynx/NetHopper/Newt's Cape & Co. >I also agree with Grant that the interface should be bigger. Maybe full >screen even. So should be the script editor (it's a pain when you try to write cgis during university naps on databases). >I know that in a older version number of the WebPager, you could reply >directly to a page (from someone that sent it from a Newton running NPDS) by >tapping on the little button that looks like a Newton. The only awkward part >of this was that it had to open NetHopper and download the senders >"WebPager" page from their NPDS server. You can still do it. What it opens depends on which browser are installed, but I agree that there should be an included way to answer as you describe it. >(4.) REBOOTING: I think all of us would like to have the option to have all >of NPDS start minimized in the "Star" menu upon reboot. Alright, alright. >Reading what Grant said about having a web-based remote admin system: THIS >IS A LONG SHOT, but it might be possible with a modified Steve Weyer's >NewtVNC! Right now, the two things stopping us are: In the current version >there is no JAVA web-based connection to the server like in the real VNC, >and the server mode only listens for a connection for a handful of seconds. >We could ask Steve if it would be possible to put the JAVA web interface in >a version or as an add-on to WABA. Then (getting longer and longer...) we >could have a link on the current Admin page that would trigger a NewtScript >to tell NewtVNC to listen for a connection. I realize after writing this >that this will be on the bottom of the list, ha ha. Er, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're thinking about. You want to trigger VNC from NPDS? (there is no need for any line of Java there) Trigger NPDS from VNC? (neither) Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:04:28 -0700 From: "Grant [Lint Trap] Hutchinson" In a previous message, Paul Guyot typed vigorously: >>Yes, this is what I meant. I guess I shouldn't have used the term >>"files", but instead the term "requests". I was concerned whether or not >>NPDS could actually serve a single web page that consisted of several >>(and possibly dozens) or separate images and other bits from the soup. > >This is not at all a problem, you can trust me. Excellent. This makes the develop of themes extremely flexible. Not that I would encourage overdoing the design of a theme just for the sake of the design. We will still need to consider the file size of the various components that make up a theme. The less bloated we get, the better. >>Sorry, no reference. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I >>was interested in this part of the development. > >I thought you were a professional web designer. Erm. Yes. I am. I guess I was being a bit too indirect. In fact it was a reference to my ability to create web -based designs. Sign me up! >>In regards to "pseudo-static NPDS websites", do you mean building mockup >>pages and serving them on an NPDS server? Or just on any server so they >>approximately what we would like the future of NPDS to be? > >On any server. In a nutshell, let's dream folks ;) I understand now. This method certainly makes it easier to prototype ideas. >>Ooh, I feel like there's going to be a lot of documentation to describe >>how to do this... > >Probably. But a new interface would definitely make easy to implement >the domain SSI for Paul Filmer. Let me see if I understand this. We would be getting rid of the concept of the script editor to create custom SSI tags, by replacing it with the ability to have NPDS parse and execute the NS code directly from the HTML (or noteserved pages). Is this correct? >>Well, I am going to assume that the new NPDS will be more stable and >>robust than the current version. This would make it less necessary to >>have something like NPDS Watcher monitoring the process and restarting >>the Newton when thing go wrong. However, if such a monitor is deemed to >>be a requirement, why can't we build some sort of auto-restart mechanism >>into the NPDS package itself? I'm just asking a question. There may be >>several reason why this is a dumb idea. > >Indeed, we need a watcher, especially considering that other things >could bring the server down. I am not sure it has to be specifically >included into the server, although it's not really a module but >rather a function. Now I've got it. I guess I was just curious to see if their were any benefits or efficiencies to combined the Watcher with another component of NPDS. g. ...................................................................... Grant Hutchinson Interface Considerations & Toys Live video served fresh since 1996. http://www.splorp.com/cam/ Now fortified with daily ramblings. http://www.splorp.com/blog/ Newton. It's the Palm with a brain. http://www.splorp.com/newton/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:16:59 -0600 From: John Skinner Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Paul Guyot wrote: Er, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're thinking about. You want to trigger VNC from NPDS? (there is no need for any line of Java there) Trigger NPDS from VNC? (neither) I'll try to explain better Paul. JAVA... The regular VNC software that you get for Windows, Mac, Linux and other OSs has a JAVA web browser interface incorporated into it, allowing one to access the VNC server from a standard JAVA enabled web browser. Otherwise, the only way to connect to a VNC server is by downloading and installing a OS specific VNC client on your computer. Right now, the only way to connect to NewtVNC is by using standard VNC client software. In order for NewtVNC to be able to accept incomming connections from a WEB BROWSER instead of a VNC client, there would have to be the JAVA based web browser interface added to NewtVNC. Triggering...... The current NewtVNC has a "listen" button to start to listen for incomming connections, but it times-out after about 15 seconds. So, you can't have your NewtVNC in server mode all day waiting for connections. I thought that maybe we could incorporate a link into a web page served by NPDS, that could somehow make the NewtVNC program start to listenfor a connection. Then, when you try to connect to it right after clicking this link, you would be within the timeout period and be able to connect. Do any of these ramblings make it more clear, or did I just complicate it? [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:26:52 -0500 Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure From: Matt Vaughn I've been following this thread closely but haven't had time to reply. However, I saw something that made me cringe and had to put in mi dos centavos. >> > > Let me see if I understand this. We would be getting rid of the concept > of the script editor to create custom SSI tags, by replacing it with the > ability to have NPDS parse and execute the NS code directly from the HTML > (or noteserved pages). Is this correct? I considered and rejected inline newtonscript at one point since not too many users of NPDS could write Newtonscript, and in fact, I even had a rough extension to Notepad Server that could run arbitrary Newtonscript posted from the web, so it can be done. I was considering using it as some sort of remote administration tool. Anyway, if you implement inline execution, you need a tight security policy with this. Otherwise, I could post a note containing RATHER malicious Newtonscript and your Newton could be rendered nearly unusable. The big problem is that everything runs with full read-write-execute permissions in the Newtonscript environment. You need to be REALLY sure that nothing can slip in from outside to sabotage your machine. All this said, I think it's a great idea, provided it's properly implemented. Another thing is that passing variables to server side includes CAN be done. I simply was too lazy to write the parser that would take the SSI tag, parse out the variable(s), and pass them to the script. However, it can be done. The unused variable that's in every NPDS SSI function declaration is required by the onboard NS compiler (for some arcane reason), but it doesn't have to be unused, it just has to be in the function declaration, Actually, if I remember correctly, you can even have more than one variable in that declaration, but there has to be at least one. Also, the SSI code can be modified so that it functions outside a page, acting more like a CGI. If I remember right, there's a tag in the SSI soup for the "name" of the SSI. If someone had time, he could write a wrapper that would be able to call the SSI function as an executable, knowing the name of the SSI. Thus, you could do things like http://my.npds.com/cgi-bin/ MySpecialScript and return a full dynamically generated page. I also agree with Paul's assertion that the interface for Script Editor needs to be revised. It fits nicely on my old MP130 but not on your fancy MP2x00 screens. Oh man, you guys are making me hanker to get out my old Newt and start coding for it again (now that I have a job and a degree) Cheers, Matt -- Matthew W. Vaughn, Ph.D. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory 1 Bungtown Road Cold Spring Harbor, NY 11724 "Plant hackers have root access!" [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Filmer, Paul E." Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:42:38 -0500 > >>* integration of NPDS Watcher > > > >What do you mean? > > Well, I am going to assume that the new NPDS will be more stable and > robust than the current version. This would make it less necessary to > have something like NPDS Watcher monitoring the process and restarting > the Newton when thing go wrong. However, if such a monitor is deemed to > be a requirement, why can't we build some sort of auto-restart mechanism > into the NPDS package itself? I'm just asking a question. There may be > several reason why this is a dumb idea. > I'll chime in here -- despite the beauty of the Watcher (..beholder?), it still seems to defeat my server, and as soon as I leave, something crashes it, and it often restarts without establishing a connection. So there it sits, thinking it is connected, and since there are no queries, it never resets again, and I find it the next time I am in the office in this unconnected, but ever-so-ready to serve state. My work-around is a simple Stop-Start cycle (which also sometimes requires a "Connect" tap), which I would love to be able to do automatically from within Watcher or whatever it evolves to. [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:45:58 -0700 From: "Grant [Lint Trap] Hutchinson" In a previous message, Paul Guyot typed vigorously: >>It would be nice to have it done in frames, but then we would be excluding >>browsing to it from Newton browsers like NetHopper/Newt's Cape wouldn't we? > >Actually, I'm not very fond of frames as they're (a) not supported by >many browsers including NetHopper/Newt's Cape and (b) apparently >dropped with HTML 4.0. I certainly understand John's point about making the web pages refresh or change faster by minimizing the amount of content reloading by using frames. However, this kind of efficiency offered by frames is rather misplaced. Since you are actually loading more HTML with a frames based interface than than single page design, you end up sending more data to the client at any given time. For a design the has a navbar, main content area, and perhaps a footer - the client actually has to request four html pages including the frameset wrapper in order to display the page. Oof! To Paul's point, as far as I can determine, the W3C has not dropped frames as part of either the current HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 recommendations. >>Maybe this could be done somehow with CSS though, I don't know. > >This and many other things can be done with CSS. >I'm just an amateur HTML coder and more interested in the languages >than the visual aspects of things, but as I see it, CSS is a way to >have the thing look nice under modern browsers (supporting CSS, >basically) and keep the thing readable in Lynx/NetHopper/Newt's Cape >& Co. Amen. Let's spread the word to the masses. >>I know that in a older version number of the WebPager, you could reply >>directly to a page (from someone that sent it from a Newton running NPDS) by >>tapping on the little button that looks like a Newton. The only awkward part >>of this was that it had to open NetHopper and download the senders >>"WebPager" page from their NPDS server. > >You can still do it. What it opens depends on which browser are >installed, but I agree that there should be an included way to answer >as you describe it. Is there anything we could do using server push from NPDS (or the pager component) back to the desktop browser to refresh the web page with the response? Maybe this is too complex for discussion right now. >>(4.) REBOOTING: I think all of us would like to have the option to have all >>of NPDS start minimized in the "Star" menu upon reboot. > >Alright, alright. And Paul caves in to public pressure. ;) g. ...................................................................... Grant Hutchinson Interface Considerations & Toys Live video served fresh since 1996. http://www.splorp.com/cam/ Now fortified with daily ramblings. http://www.splorp.com/blog/ Newton. It's the Palm with a brain. http://www.splorp.com/newton/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:51:17 -0700 From: "Grant [Lint Trap] Hutchinson" In a previous message, Matt Vaughn typed vigorously: >I also agree with Paul's assertion that the interface for Script Editor >needs to be revised. It fits nicely on my old MP130 but not on your fancy >MP2x00 screens. Oh man, you guys are making me hanker to get out my old >Newt and start coding for it again (now that I have a job and a degree) Matt, if you're serious about getting back into the game, I'd be willing to send you one of my extra "lightly-used and previously loved..." MP2100s for you to mess around with. Free. Gratis. No money down. Let me know if this sounds like something you'd want to do. It'd be great to have back on the front lines and contributing to the code again. g. ...................................................................... Grant Hutchinson Interface Considerations & Toys Live video served fresh since 1996. http://www.splorp.com/cam/ Now fortified with daily ramblings. http://www.splorp.com/blog/ Newton. It's the Palm with a brain. http://www.splorp.com/newton/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:56:43 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure >Let me see if I understand this. We would be getting rid of the concept >of the script editor to create custom SSI tags, by replacing it with the >ability to have NPDS parse and execute the NS code directly from the HTML >(or noteserved pages). Is this correct? Actually, I thought about having both systems. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:58:24 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure >In order for NewtVNC to be able to accept incomming connections from >a WEB BROWSER instead of a VNC client, there would have to be the >JAVA based web browser interface added to NewtVNC. I see. This is rather part of VNC than NPDS. >Then, when you try to connect to it right after clicking this link, >you would be within the timeout period and be able to connect. This can be done with a simple SSI with NPDS 2.x. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:00:37 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure >I considered and rejected inline newtonscript at one point since not >too many users of NPDS could write Newtonscript, and in fact, I even >had a rough extension to Notepad Server that could run arbitrary >Newtonscript posted from the web, so it can be done. I was >considering using it as some sort of remote administration tool. >Anyway, if you implement inline execution, you need a tight security >policy with this. Otherwise, I could post a note containing RATHER >malicious Newtonscript and your Newton could be rendered nearly >unusable. The big problem is that everything runs with full >read-write-execute permissions in the Newtonscript environment. You >need to be REALLY sure that nothing can slip in from outside to >sabotage your machine. Of course, inline NewtonScript is subject to a clear definition of what is a posted note and what is not. >Another thing is that passing variables to server side includes CAN >be done. I simply was too lazy to write the parser that would take >the SSI tag, parse out the variable(s), and pass them to the script. >However, it can be done. The unused variable that's in every NPDS >SSI function declaration is required by the onboard NS compiler (for >some arcane reason), I can't see where, but I trust you. >but it doesn't have to be unused, it just has to be in the function >declaration It is currently some NPDS-core frame that is passed as the argument. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:08:31 +0100 From: Paul Guyot Subject: [NPDS] Re: Towards NPDS 3: themes and structure >To Paul's point, as far as I can determine, the W3C has not dropped >frames as part of either the current HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 >recommendations. Actually, I deduced this from the division in three DTDs, strict, transitional and frameset in this order. But I can't find any statement of the W3C saying that they consider frames obsoletes. >Is there anything we could do using server push from NPDS (or the pager >component) back to the desktop browser to refresh the web page with the >response? Maybe this is too complex for discussion right now. Actually, this can only be done by not closing the connection, and only with browsers supporting it. Or with some Java applet. Paul - -- Home page: http://www.kallisys.com/ Newton-powered WebServer: http://newt.dyndns.org:8080/ [NPDS Mailing List: To unsubscribe: mailto:npds-request@ml.free.fr?subject=unsubscribe] --------------------------------------------------------------